Lovely interview thanks. I foresee bigger better consequences for us all when the truth of the pandemic reveals itself. There are many layers to it, like everything in life, and death of course. Do we make life hell because we fear death that is not. That said, I do not believe politicians will make changes voluntarily. Turkeys don't vote for Christmas. Having worked in suicide and grief for many years (lived experience, survival, prevention, education, etc) I agree (forgive my paraphrasing) that death and gratitude, and engaging with one's own mortality are not typically aspects of political machinery, which instead (obviously) has evolved systemically and strategically for maintaining power and control. Politicians would simply not get into power on a platform of compassion, and in this respect our political system is not much different to its medieval origins, and is actually more wicked, because so much is hidden, whereas hanging, drawing and quartering was at least transparent :) Political leaders then made no secret of their disdain for the masses. Contextually, corruption and the deep interdependence between politics and big business seem to me to be crucial forces preventing any governments considering compassion and creativity, arts and love, as ethical drivers. Any nod to empathy rather than process is only ever cynically part of PR and propaganda, to persuade the public that governments care more about the people they are paid to serve, rather than political self-interest (and insecurity - most politicians are really like little boys). Nick Duffell's work analyses all this very well, notably his book Wounded Leaders, his gender therapy, and related 'The Making of Them' documentary. Duffell is also co-author of the latest Simpol.org book with John Bunzl, founder of Simpol.org (Simultaneous Policy). Chomsky says Simpol is worth a try, and it is certainly growing in political influence internationally, especially in the UK - and excitingly is aligned with and will perhaps morph into 'conscious evolution' and 'protopia' and similar concepts. Parallel systems are emerging everywhere, especially in media and communications. Homo sapiens are creative, cooperative and compassionate by nature. There is an inevitability about compassionate evolution. The power of communities, and people, is irresistible, when it begins to develop, and it certainly began a while ago. I suspect the draconian politics and media control seen in recent years is a reaction to this inevitability. Positive change; an evolutionary shift internationally; the end of the globalist systems, and a return to decentralised compassion-based communities is coming, probably faster than we dare to imagine (and I certainly do dare to imagine - 'thoughts become things', they really do :) And so to quantum, another subject. This 'conscious evolution' will be and is already becoming, a new way of living, based on the best of modern advancement, with the connectedness (to nature and cosmos, natural health and healing, etc) that we left behind 10,000 years ago, mindful that the Native American Indians are a more recent exception of a way of 'being', in harmony and balance, that we will rediscover in new ways. Dandelions are free and an extraordinarily healthy food, is a tiny example and metaphor. People are changing what they eat and drink, realising (consciously and subconsciously, self-evidently) the toxicity and addictions of sugars and chemicals, and their links with trauma, debt, gambling, whole-life health and fitness, and our murderous financial systems, and this will change everything, all the way up to the banks, and what 'money' is. Nobody can predict the future, obviously. In many respects the past doesn't matter; it's gone and we cannot change it, moreover does the past actually offer us any really useful lessons for re-imagining what the human planet will be in a generation's time? We cannot understand infinite concepts with finite means. Artificial intelligence will never be able to do love and laughter. We disintegrate and we are reborn, until we die, and our children do the same. The cycle of life, absolutely. Nothing is everything, and reality is what we make in our heads. I've gone way off piste, but I wanted to offer my own extremely optimistic perspective, and I'm very grateful for the opportunity to comment. Thanks for each of your great works and beautiful brilliant brave spirits, all far more practical and impactful than my own ramblings :) Thanks and love, Alan Chapman
I am afraid I am far less forgiving than you. I do think most people made decisions with the best intentions, however they then failed to look at evidence and listen to other voices. And now they fail to acknowledge their mistakes. I know it takes a big person to do this and there is some 'drip feeding' of mistakes, one of them being 'we should have never closed schools'.
However none of them so far has stood up and said 'we should have dealt with this differently'.
And personally I do think this would go a long way towards healing the rift and moving forward in a positive direction, trying to work together to make sure that such 'groupthink' mistakes are never made again.
What a brilliant and fascinating interview about a topic/profession which most of us never really consider. I've now bought the book - prior to reading your review, Laura(!) and looking forward to getting stuck into it later!
Interesting interview. The problem is that the science and modelling was hugely compromised and hence inaccurate (we can surely all see that now), and then the whole legion of disaster planners/managers like Lucy were/are working from faulty assumptions which they either failed to examine (spending 400 billion suggests an existential threat which obviously COVID never was) or didn’t have the authority to do so. The only way of fixing this situation to an extent, that irrespective of what happens next will affect the U.K. for generations, is mass resignations/firings of the people involved; public health, modellers, scientists and of course members of the government. Then criminal charges for any malfeasance. It will never happen though, in fact we will likely have a lower bar for more of the same response going forward.
While various SAGE Committee members were relishing their fame spreading their doom and gloom all over the media, was Lucy speaking out about the fact she was being ignored? Genuine question because I’d never heard of her until this interview.
Lovely interview thanks. I foresee bigger better consequences for us all when the truth of the pandemic reveals itself. There are many layers to it, like everything in life, and death of course. Do we make life hell because we fear death that is not. That said, I do not believe politicians will make changes voluntarily. Turkeys don't vote for Christmas. Having worked in suicide and grief for many years (lived experience, survival, prevention, education, etc) I agree (forgive my paraphrasing) that death and gratitude, and engaging with one's own mortality are not typically aspects of political machinery, which instead (obviously) has evolved systemically and strategically for maintaining power and control. Politicians would simply not get into power on a platform of compassion, and in this respect our political system is not much different to its medieval origins, and is actually more wicked, because so much is hidden, whereas hanging, drawing and quartering was at least transparent :) Political leaders then made no secret of their disdain for the masses. Contextually, corruption and the deep interdependence between politics and big business seem to me to be crucial forces preventing any governments considering compassion and creativity, arts and love, as ethical drivers. Any nod to empathy rather than process is only ever cynically part of PR and propaganda, to persuade the public that governments care more about the people they are paid to serve, rather than political self-interest (and insecurity - most politicians are really like little boys). Nick Duffell's work analyses all this very well, notably his book Wounded Leaders, his gender therapy, and related 'The Making of Them' documentary. Duffell is also co-author of the latest Simpol.org book with John Bunzl, founder of Simpol.org (Simultaneous Policy). Chomsky says Simpol is worth a try, and it is certainly growing in political influence internationally, especially in the UK - and excitingly is aligned with and will perhaps morph into 'conscious evolution' and 'protopia' and similar concepts. Parallel systems are emerging everywhere, especially in media and communications. Homo sapiens are creative, cooperative and compassionate by nature. There is an inevitability about compassionate evolution. The power of communities, and people, is irresistible, when it begins to develop, and it certainly began a while ago. I suspect the draconian politics and media control seen in recent years is a reaction to this inevitability. Positive change; an evolutionary shift internationally; the end of the globalist systems, and a return to decentralised compassion-based communities is coming, probably faster than we dare to imagine (and I certainly do dare to imagine - 'thoughts become things', they really do :) And so to quantum, another subject. This 'conscious evolution' will be and is already becoming, a new way of living, based on the best of modern advancement, with the connectedness (to nature and cosmos, natural health and healing, etc) that we left behind 10,000 years ago, mindful that the Native American Indians are a more recent exception of a way of 'being', in harmony and balance, that we will rediscover in new ways. Dandelions are free and an extraordinarily healthy food, is a tiny example and metaphor. People are changing what they eat and drink, realising (consciously and subconsciously, self-evidently) the toxicity and addictions of sugars and chemicals, and their links with trauma, debt, gambling, whole-life health and fitness, and our murderous financial systems, and this will change everything, all the way up to the banks, and what 'money' is. Nobody can predict the future, obviously. In many respects the past doesn't matter; it's gone and we cannot change it, moreover does the past actually offer us any really useful lessons for re-imagining what the human planet will be in a generation's time? We cannot understand infinite concepts with finite means. Artificial intelligence will never be able to do love and laughter. We disintegrate and we are reborn, until we die, and our children do the same. The cycle of life, absolutely. Nothing is everything, and reality is what we make in our heads. I've gone way off piste, but I wanted to offer my own extremely optimistic perspective, and I'm very grateful for the opportunity to comment. Thanks for each of your great works and beautiful brilliant brave spirits, all far more practical and impactful than my own ramblings :) Thanks and love, Alan Chapman
A great interview.
I am afraid I am far less forgiving than you. I do think most people made decisions with the best intentions, however they then failed to look at evidence and listen to other voices. And now they fail to acknowledge their mistakes. I know it takes a big person to do this and there is some 'drip feeding' of mistakes, one of them being 'we should have never closed schools'.
However none of them so far has stood up and said 'we should have dealt with this differently'.
And personally I do think this would go a long way towards healing the rift and moving forward in a positive direction, trying to work together to make sure that such 'groupthink' mistakes are never made again.
What a brilliant and fascinating interview about a topic/profession which most of us never really consider. I've now bought the book - prior to reading your review, Laura(!) and looking forward to getting stuck into it later!
A superb and very important discussion.
I can't listen to your Podcasts without buying the book!
Interesting interview. The problem is that the science and modelling was hugely compromised and hence inaccurate (we can surely all see that now), and then the whole legion of disaster planners/managers like Lucy were/are working from faulty assumptions which they either failed to examine (spending 400 billion suggests an existential threat which obviously COVID never was) or didn’t have the authority to do so. The only way of fixing this situation to an extent, that irrespective of what happens next will affect the U.K. for generations, is mass resignations/firings of the people involved; public health, modellers, scientists and of course members of the government. Then criminal charges for any malfeasance. It will never happen though, in fact we will likely have a lower bar for more of the same response going forward.
While various SAGE Committee members were relishing their fame spreading their doom and gloom all over the media, was Lucy speaking out about the fact she was being ignored? Genuine question because I’d never heard of her until this interview.
This lady wouldn't know a real disaster if it hit her in the face. Try WWII for a start.
Somehow I cannot play audiofile. Have downloaded Substack app, but cannot get it to work?
Any ideas?